This blog was created to provide a forum to discuss Wisconsin Assembly Bill 69 dealing with changes to requirements for Professional Engineer Licensure in Wisconsin.
This blog is not associated with the State of Wisconsin; it is a private blog created to discuss and gather opinions on issues related to the bill.
Although primarily directed to Professional Engineers; all are welcome to provide thoughtful comments on the bill.
Thursday, May 31, 2007
Amendment to AB 69
Here is the text of the proposed amendment by Rep. Nelson:
Representative Mark Gottlieb Room 309 North State Capitol P.O. Box 8952 Madison, WI 53708
Re: Assembly Bill 69, Nelson and Newcomer Amendment
Honorable Representative Gottlieb:
I am writing in opposition to the proposed Amendment to AB 69 by Representatives Nelson and Newcomer. I am writing as a member of Joint Board of Architects, Landscape Architects, Professional Engineers, Designers and Land Surveyors, where I serve as chairman and of the Professional Engineers Section, where I also serve as chairman.
We all need to keep the focus of the licensure bill in perspective. That focus is to protect the public health, safety and welfare. The licensure bill is not a bill to artificially create opportunities and promote licensure to increase numbers or enhance careers. The law attempts to set standards and criteria to ensure those that achieve licensure are the most qualified.
This amendment has the potential to weaken the overall licensure process. The amendment broadens the domain of potential applicants to those without an engineering based education. It is not unreasonably restrictive to require professional engineers to have an engineering education; in fact it is quite common practice in other professions.
With the amendment, it leaves the door open to the board’s discretion, as to educational requirements. It could be difficult for the board to determine whether a degree is sufficient to meet the intent of the law. There would be the opportunity for numerous appeals and challenges on a extremely vague standard. For example, a person with a four-year college degree that works as an engineering technician might apply for licensure and force the board to make a decision on whether that degree appropriately prepared the applicant for responsible charge of engineering projects—large and small. In the event of a problem, there would be high criticism of the board’s action where it would be discovered that a credential holder did not have a degree in the profession for which they were licensed.
The discretion of the Board should be reserved to evaluate foreign degrees for conformance to that Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) standard. (ABET, Inc., the recognized accreditor for college and university programs in applied science, computing, engineering, and technology, is a federation of 28 professional and technical societies representing these fields. Among the most respected accreditation organizations in the U.S., ABET has provided leadership and quality assurance in higher education for over 70 years.) In this path, an independent outside review is prepared identifying whether or not the foreign degree meets ABET standards, or if it does not, identify the deficiencies. In this case, the board can exercise judgment about the breadth and depth of engineering education. In the proposed amendment the board may be placed in positions of exercising judgment where there is no engineering education.
Quoted on the enclosure is the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) definition of "Practice of Engineering" for your reference. (The National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) is a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories.) This definition comes from the NCEES model law—example statutory items that most states have adopted or are moving toward. This model law has undergone substantial research and revision and has a number of excellent provisions.
Within that definition is the description of "application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to…" This is the core distinction generally accepted in the industry between pure science and engineering; that being engineering is the application of pure science to practical problem solving.
From any standpoint, an education that includes some engineering should be required for licensure. Applicants need more than just the pure sciences to qualify for licensure as an engineer. In the case I recall, I believe we approved a Physics major who also had an advanced degree in an engineering discipline. That could likely be one of the measures deemed to be acceptable to the board. A more palatable amendment provision might be to require either a four-year degree in engineering coursework or a science based four-year degree and an engineering based advanced degree. In any case, some engineering course work must be a part of the applicant’s experience.
In conclusion, I would simply restate that it is not overly restrictive nor unduly burdensome to require professional engineer license candidates to have an engineering based educational experience prior to licensure. It is a reasonable public expectation that those entrusted with professional seals and in responsible charge of projects that affect public health safety and welfare to have an engineering based educational background.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment. Should you have any further questions, you may contact me on my cell phone at 715.559.9251 Practice of Engineering Definition Excerpt from NCEES Model Law (September 2006)
18 5. Practice of Engineering – The term “Practice of Engineering,” within the intent of this Act, 19 shall mean any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires 20 engineering education, training, and experience in the application of special knowledge of 21 the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as 22 consultation, investigation, expert technical testimony, evaluation, planning, design and 23 design coordination of engineering works and systems, planning the use of land, air, and 24 water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects, performing engineering surveys and studies, 25 and the review and/or management of construction for the purpose of monitoring and/or 26 ensuring compliance with drawings and specifications; any of which embraces such services or 27 work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings, 28 machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, communication systems, 29 transportation systems, and industrial or consumer products, or equipment of a control 30 systems, communications, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, chemical, 31 environmental, or thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health, or 32 property, and including such other professional services as may be necessary to the planning, 33 progress, and completion of any engineering services. 34 Design coordination includes the review and coordination of those technical submissions 35 prepared by others, including as appropriate and without limitation, consulting engineers, 36 architects, landscape architects, surveyors, and other professionals working under the 37 direction of the engineer. 38 Engineering surveys include all survey activities required to support the sound conception, 39 planning, design, construction, maintenance, and operation of engineered projects, but 40 exclude the surveying of real property for the establishment of land boundaries, rights-of-way, 41 easements, and the dependent or independent surveys or resurveys of the public land survey 42 system. 43 A person shall be construed to practice or offer to practice engineering, within the meaning 44 and intent of this Act, who practices any branch of the profession of engineering; or who, by 45 verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way represents themselves 46 to be a professional engineer, or through the use of some other title implies that they are a 47 professional engineer or that they are licensed under this Act; or who hold themselves out as 48 able to perform, or who does perform any engineering service or work or any other service 49 designated by the practitioner which is recognized as engineering.
1 comment:
DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT DRAFT
May 29, 2007
Representative Mark Gottlieb
Room 309 North
State Capitol
P.O. Box 8952
Madison, WI 53708
Re: Assembly Bill 69, Nelson and Newcomer Amendment
Honorable Representative Gottlieb:
I am writing in opposition to the proposed Amendment to AB 69 by Representatives Nelson and Newcomer. I am writing as a member of Joint Board of Architects, Landscape Architects, Professional Engineers, Designers and Land Surveyors, where I serve as chairman and of the Professional Engineers Section, where I also serve as chairman.
We all need to keep the focus of the licensure bill in perspective. That focus is to protect the public health, safety and welfare. The licensure bill is not a bill to artificially create opportunities and promote licensure to increase numbers or enhance careers. The law attempts to set standards and criteria to ensure those that achieve licensure are the most qualified.
This amendment has the potential to weaken the overall licensure process. The amendment broadens the domain of potential applicants to those without an engineering based education. It is not unreasonably restrictive to require professional engineers to have an engineering education; in fact it is quite common practice in other professions.
With the amendment, it leaves the door open to the board’s discretion, as to educational requirements. It could be difficult for the board to determine whether a degree is sufficient to meet the intent of the law. There would be the opportunity for numerous appeals and challenges on a extremely vague standard. For example, a person with a four-year college degree that works as an engineering technician might apply for licensure and force the board to make a decision on whether that degree appropriately prepared the applicant for responsible charge of engineering projects—large and small. In the event of a problem, there would be high criticism of the board’s action where it would be discovered that a credential holder did not have a degree in the profession for which they were licensed.
The discretion of the Board should be reserved to evaluate foreign degrees for conformance to that Accreditation Board for Engineering and Technology (ABET) standard. (ABET, Inc., the recognized accreditor for college and university programs in applied science, computing, engineering, and technology, is a federation of 28 professional and technical societies representing these fields. Among the most respected accreditation organizations in the U.S., ABET has provided leadership and quality assurance in higher education for over 70 years.) In this path, an independent outside review is prepared identifying whether or not the foreign degree meets ABET standards, or if it does not, identify the deficiencies. In this case, the board can exercise judgment about the breadth and depth of engineering education. In the proposed amendment the board may be placed in positions of exercising judgment where there is no engineering education.
Quoted on the enclosure is the National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) definition of "Practice of Engineering" for your reference. (The National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES) is a national non-profit organization composed of engineering and surveying licensing boards representing all states and U.S. territories.) This definition comes from the NCEES model law—example statutory items that most states have adopted or are moving toward. This model law has undergone substantial research and revision and has a number of excellent provisions.
Within that definition is the description of "application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to…" This is the core distinction generally accepted in the industry between pure science and engineering; that being engineering is the application of pure science to practical problem solving.
From any standpoint, an education that includes some engineering should be required for licensure. Applicants need more than just the pure sciences to qualify for licensure as an engineer. In the case I recall, I believe we approved a Physics major who also had an advanced degree in an engineering discipline. That could likely be one of the measures deemed to be acceptable to the board. A more palatable amendment provision might be to require either a four-year degree in engineering coursework or a science based four-year degree and an engineering based advanced degree. In any case, some engineering course work must be a part of the applicant’s experience.
In conclusion, I would simply restate that it is not overly restrictive nor unduly burdensome to require professional engineer license candidates to have an engineering based educational experience prior to licensure. It is a reasonable public expectation that those entrusted with professional seals and in responsible charge of projects that affect public health safety and welfare to have an engineering based educational background.
Thank you for the opportunity to comment. Should you have any further questions, you may contact me on my cell phone at 715.559.9251
Practice of Engineering Definition
Excerpt from NCEES Model Law (September 2006)
18 5. Practice of Engineering – The term “Practice of Engineering,” within the intent of this Act,
19 shall mean any service or creative work, the adequate performance of which requires
20 engineering education, training, and experience in the application of special knowledge of
21 the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences to such services or creative work as
22 consultation, investigation, expert technical testimony, evaluation, planning, design and
23 design coordination of engineering works and systems, planning the use of land, air, and
24 water, teaching of advanced engineering subjects, performing engineering surveys and studies,
25 and the review and/or management of construction for the purpose of monitoring and/or
26 ensuring compliance with drawings and specifications; any of which embraces such services or
27 work, either public or private, in connection with any utilities, structures, buildings,
28 machines, equipment, processes, work systems, projects, communication systems,
29 transportation systems, and industrial or consumer products, or equipment of a control
30 systems, communications, mechanical, electrical, hydraulic, pneumatic, chemical,
31 environmental, or thermal nature, insofar as they involve safeguarding life, health, or
32 property, and including such other professional services as may be necessary to the planning,
33 progress, and completion of any engineering services.
34 Design coordination includes the review and coordination of those technical submissions
35 prepared by others, including as appropriate and without limitation, consulting engineers,
36 architects, landscape architects, surveyors, and other professionals working under the
37 direction of the engineer.
38 Engineering surveys include all survey activities required to support the sound conception,
39 planning, design, construction, maintenance, and operation of engineered projects, but
40 exclude the surveying of real property for the establishment of land boundaries, rights-of-way,
41 easements, and the dependent or independent surveys or resurveys of the public land survey
42 system.
43 A person shall be construed to practice or offer to practice engineering, within the meaning
44 and intent of this Act, who practices any branch of the profession of engineering; or who, by
45 verbal claim, sign, advertisement, letterhead, card, or in any other way represents themselves
46 to be a professional engineer, or through the use of some other title implies that they are a
47 professional engineer or that they are licensed under this Act; or who hold themselves out as
48 able to perform, or who does perform any engineering service or work or any other service
49 designated by the practitioner which is recognized as engineering.
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